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View Full Version : We need more universal jutsu.


Epsilon7
06-04-2012, 03:45 PM
I've read the universal jutsu directory, and it seems there aren't that many possible jutsu. There are a couple of ninjutsu lists, a couple of taijutsu styles, some sword styles, and one, maybe two styles for every other type of weapon.

I just think that there should be more universal styles to choose from. Does anyone else feel the same way?

darkbeauty
06-04-2012, 03:49 PM
Well if you feel that way, maybe you should try making one! :3

Nan_Wu
06-04-2012, 08:33 PM
It's cool to think that way. But what new lists would you suggest? I think it's pretty good so far.

Sabaku Ookami
06-04-2012, 11:07 PM
I think more universal Ninjutsu would be a good thing, as it seems to be the most limited out of Nin, Tai, Gen and Kenjutsu's. As for what those Jutsu could be, I'm not too sure. I'll have a think when I'm sober

SuzuFujibayashi
06-04-2012, 11:32 PM
A big problem is making a universal taijutsu style isn't too difficult - the problem is making universal ninjutsu, or genjutsu. Because a lot of things are taken by villages or clans. Then if you find something unused, you have to be able to make enough to justify 3 jutsu per 7 stages.

CommonRider
06-05-2012, 12:22 AM
I'm sorry, did you say a couple of Taijutsu Styles? Haha, because that's wrong. There are twenty-two pure taijutsu styles, fifteen sword styles. Those two together make up thirty-seven lists. That's not counting the twenty-six other miscellaneous styles. Then there are the chakra based styles, which add up to nineteen lists.

All together that makes eighty two universal lists.

I know that from just looking at the universal directory there doesn't seem to be a lot, heck even I was surprised at the number I came to, but we really do have a lot of lists.

Nan_Wu
06-05-2012, 04:41 AM
Another thing you have to realize is that we have a pretty strenuous approval process that serves as a good way of weeding out things that just wouldn't work on Engi. For example, there has been repeated attempts at a universal Barrier list. But to no avail. Not cause these lists sucked, but because certain things just can't fly.

Aside from that however, some pretty awesome lists would be.
Universal Sealing list
Universal Barrier list ( one that works)
Some more Genjutsu. Perhaps some specifically for torture and others that completely change an opponent's environment.
Universal Sensor list.

I'm just saying.

Junge
06-05-2012, 05:32 AM
IMO, swaps do most everything you ACTUALLY want. You say "I want more universal lists" but what you really mean is "I'm looking for a few techniques that do BLAH and those don't exist in Universal right now". Tai styles I can understand there being a lot of because you can't swap a fighting discipline, but generally speaking a lot of stuff you might want (say, a dancing-based list, or a set of specifically themed genjutu) exists in some small form in Global already (meaning swaps would be okay there, so long as they don't break the rules or village-established domains).

I don't want to suggest that there aren't things that could be made into good universal lists. But I don't think there is a problem with lack of options, since customization is something that you can do without new lists.

Distortion
06-05-2012, 05:56 AM
I actually planned on making an awesome list but me being me, I'm just not that skilled yet. I've also found I'm not very well versed in the spiritual/aspect part of unarmed/armed combat.

I'll probably make swaps for it. Maybe.

Jami
06-05-2012, 01:26 PM
While I can agree that it would be cool to have more universal ninjutsu/genjutsu lists, I also have to say that we are not in any desperate need of them. Part of the problem is that people who haven't tried to make a list tend to not realize quite how much work is involved. Any list has to be able to support at least 21 jutsu spread over seven stages. That is a lot.

A long time ago, it might have been easier, for a few reasons. The Ink and Wax Ninjutsu lists are made in this sort of older style; because of the way scaling works now, a large number of the jutsu in those lists would be folded into early jutsu as stage-scaling. Other lists, like Those Lacking Opacity, are edge cases of what can happen if a list can't find a good balance of combat presence with utility. Those Lacking has, essentially, the same three jutsu in every stage. Even when useful, it is very boring.

This is where some ideas, like those Nan Wu brought up, can break down quite rapidly.

Universal Sealing: how many things can you do with 'sealing'? Sealing weapons is covered by the item 'sealing tags' already. Sealing enemy jutsu might squeeze out four techs, possibly fewer if scaled properly. Sealing other seals is covered by Global Nin. Even when this had a list (it did, a lot of people don't know that), it was weak and memorable only for a flavor gimmick.

Universal Barrier: what can you do with a barrier? This is, again, a concept that can be easily replicated with a handful of jutsu, not a full 21-35. Also potentially has the problem of running into 'pure chakra' issues very easily.

Genjutsu: more genjutsu would be fine, though the branch as a whole suffers from being quite repetitive. Genjutsu specifically for torture are usually reserved for special forces...and shinobi have plenty of tools to use for that role anyway.

Universal Sensor: See sealing and barriers. This has the added complication of being closer to clan territory on Engi, despite its more universal presence in canon.

For a concept to become a list, it has to be able to do a lot, and most concepts that I've seen pitched over the years just fall short. Sealing, barriers, and sensing come up often, but would honestly be a stronger sell if they were registered as additions to global ninjutsu, where they don't have to worry about holding up a whole list.

Sinnocent
06-06-2012, 03:34 PM
I'm with Sleepy and Jami on this one.

With Sleepy because there is an outrageous amount of lists. At least two for every weapon, some split between taijutsu and ninjutsu (projectiles, ribbons, etc.) So there is a very good base there. It is simply going through them. All of them are different and have their own merits and flaws.

And like Jami said, it is really hard to make a good universal list. Most elements are tied to villages. A lot of utility/ability based things are tied to clans. You have to be able to come up with a full list. And there used to be a lot more, that were eventually cleaned out because only a couple of people used them. It doesn't make sense to have a universal list that only a handful of people would want to handful of techs from.

Swaps would be the best way to go.

Epsilon7
06-07-2012, 04:11 AM
Last night, when I was in the bathroom, I had an idea.

We should make all of the element-related ninjutsu(Mokuton, katon, suiton, button, ect.) universal, and have the strongest jutsu in those lists turned into swaps belonging to the villages. Anyone can learn Katon jutsu, but only a Leaf shinobi could get really good at it.(Stage 6-7 or something.)

Distortion
06-07-2012, 05:45 AM
I think that defeats the purpose of village jutsu.

Junge
06-07-2012, 07:06 AM
Last night, when I was in the bathroom, I had an idea.

That sure is appropriate.

Anyway, your characters already CAN acquire other village lists, but only to stage 3 and only through threads (I assume that shinobi exchange program is still kicking around somewhere). Another way to aquire techniques outside the village (I'm not as sure about this one) is to have your characters learn jutsu from other player characters, so long as that other character has the same list. That's how it works with swaps, though I'm not sure if village lists can work the same way. You can ask the GM of the country to see what options are available if you're really interested in it.

If you're willing to put the work into it, you can usually get pretty close to what you want within the already established system. Not everything is easy, but that doesn't mean it can't be done.

Epsilon7
06-09-2012, 01:43 PM
I've been trying to come up with some more ideas for universal lists, and this is what I've got:

* A taijutsu style for chakrams. (Axel's weapon, from Kingdom Hearts.)
* A list for empowering and organising your bunshin.
* A taijutsu style where the user dodges as many attacks as they can, while mocking and taunting their foe, to try and enrage them, making them more likely to miss.
* A list for paper-based attacks and weaponised origami. (Lower stages would just be regular origami, and the higher stages would be some of Konan's paper attacks. Her Paper Person of God jutsu would probably be stage 8, and unable to be taken by playable characters.)
* A jutsu list for summoning and using a giant flying wooden boat. This one might not be made, it just seemed like a good idea at the time.
* A taijutsu style for shinobi specialising in blowguns.
* A taijutsu style specialising in wearing heavy armour.
* A jutsu list for chakra-lasers.
* A jutsu list for exploding clay.(This would probably end up as one of stone country's lists.)
* A jutsu list specialising in Light. Even if it couldn't heal people, light-lasers would be a useful skill.

Seikon
06-09-2012, 02:02 PM
Chakram Taijutsu - Meh. While there isn't a style specifically devoted to the weapon, training in many other weapons could be applied towards using these more effectively.

I doubt that the "organizing/empowering" bunshin concept can justify a minimum of 21 techniques. Many lists have low and high power bunshin skills as it stands, and to be honest, not a lot of people use them.

Dodge taijutsu? We have plenty. Kizuken comes to mind. As far as taunting goes, roleplay it. Making special "name calling" taijutsu techniques isn't worth the trouble.

We already had paper, at one point or another. Or almost did. It's not an easy concept to base an entire list off of.

Summoning a what? I don't even...

Blowguns? Meh. Like the chakram thing, there are taijutsu which exist that would make your character more proficient with a blow gun, but quite frankly, you could just RP it. Just because a weapon exists doesn't mean you have to have a specific technique / school behind it.

For heavy armor, see above. You don't need the "style" in order to use an item.

Chakra Lasers? No. Pure chakra doesn't fly.

Exploding Clay? Talk to the staff if you're seriously, seriously considering this?

Light? We had something called the Goraikou, once. Lights and lasers. I wouldn't hold your breath.

Kesler
06-09-2012, 02:08 PM
I've been trying to come up with some more ideas for universal lists, and this is what I've got:

* A taijutsu style for chakrams. (Axel's weapon, from Kingdom Hearts.)
* A list for empowering and organising your bunshin.
* A taijutsu style where the user dodges as many attacks as they can, while mocking and taunting their foe, to try and enrage them, making them more likely to miss.
* A list for paper-based attacks and weaponised origami. (Lower stages would just be regular origami, and the higher stages would be some of Konan's paper attacks. Her Paper Person of God jutsu would probably be stage 8, and unable to be taken by playable characters.)
* A jutsu list for summoning and using a giant flying wooden boat. This one might not be made, it just seemed like a good idea at the time.
* A taijutsu style for shinobi specialising in blowguns.
* A taijutsu style specialising in wearing heavy armour.
* A jutsu list for chakra-lasers.
* A jutsu list for exploding clay.(This would probably end up as one of stone country's lists.)
* A jutsu list specialising in Light. Even if it couldn't heal people, light-lasers would be a useful skill.

2. Swaps. Or use Santsuki no Mai. (http://www.narutorp.net/showthread.php?t=8135)
3. This isn't really a taijutsu so much as it is a character concept. Taunting/dirty handedness is already there in Desperate Measure Fist (http://www.narutorp.net/showthread.php?t=9460). And Perfect Balance (http://www.narutorp.net/showthread.php?t=11317) is a style based largely on flexibility to dodge attacks.
5. Swaps.
6. Use any of the already existing projectile lists. I don't think anyone would mind if you used a blowgun instead of senbon for Acupuncture Style.
7. Why would you need a taijutsu list to use armor? Regardless we already have Flawless Guard (http://www.narutorp.net/showthread.php?t=16571), which is a catchall style for defense.
8. Pure chakra moves, except for those already established (Rasengan), are not allowed.
9. Doton swaps.
10. My understanding is that a bloodline that manipulated light already existed at one point and was completely broken. Not going to happen.

You could also probably accomplish paper ninjutsu with swaps. Chakrams are a bit too much of a novelty item to compose an entire list around, especially considering all the styles that nobody takes already (shinai, boomerang, yo-yo, fuuma shuriken, bandages, etc.).

Jami
06-09-2012, 03:58 PM
* A taijutsu style for chakrams. (Axel's weapon, from Kingdom Hearts.)
* A list for empowering and organising your bunshin.
* A taijutsu style where the user dodges as many attacks as they can, while mocking and taunting their foe, to try and enrage them, making them more likely to miss.
* A list for paper-based attacks and weaponised origami. (Lower stages would just be regular origami, and the higher stages would be some of Konan's paper attacks. Her Paper Person of God jutsu would probably be stage 8, and unable to be taken by playable characters.)
* A jutsu list for summoning and using a giant flying wooden boat. This one might not be made, it just seemed like a good idea at the time.
* A taijutsu style for shinobi specialising in blowguns.
* A taijutsu style specialising in wearing heavy armour.
* A jutsu list for chakra-lasers.
* A jutsu list for exploding clay.(This would probably end up as one of stone country's lists.)
* A jutsu list specialising in Light. Even if it couldn't heal people, light-lasers would be a useful skill.

I know this has been replied to, but to give some staff perspective (and since I'm already in this thread...):

1. A chakram/wheel taijutsu would, personally, be fine with me. I don't like that the weapon is on the basic list, but has never received any kind of attention.
2. I've seen it, and it's hard to come up with 21 jutsu for bunshin. There was, at one point, a list with a theme like this and it wasn't good. I can't see the concept revived for 3.1
3. Desperate Measure Fist, Flawed Fist, Fool's Bane and the like are all taijutsu that fit neatly with this. Otherwise, it is a roleplay, not a gameplay, distinction.
4. Paper is a perfect theme for swaps, as it fits well in two different villages. That being said, being tangentially related to mokuton means that both Merdle and Will can invoke a village claim on the element, which makes it probably unsuited for a universal list.
5. Flying wooden boat summon list? What about this says 'universal' to you? Or 'I can squeeze 21 useful jutsu out of this concept'?
6. Stage One: You can shoot a blow gun. Stage Seven: You're really good at shooting a blow gun. As stated previously, I don't think anyone would complain about you launching senbon ninjutsu out of a blowgun, nor do I think you can right a compelling taijutsu for a weapon that would never have a dojo open around it. A blow gun, at beast, is one part of a family of weapons.
7. No. Just...no.
8. Chakra-lasers is pure chakra, which is pretty much taboo on Engi outside very limited circumstances, almost all of which are tied to early canon techniques like Rasengan and Jyuuken. And, again, 21 jutsu of pew pew lasers.
9. I made a suite of clay swaps for an old Stone character of mine. I encourage anyone inspired by Deidara to do the same because it is quite clearly a branch of doton and not universal at all.
10. There was a light bloodline. Not only did it suffer from the usual shenanigans involved with doujutsu, it was also a work around for pure chakra rules. I'm willing to be that most of staff would be unwilling to see such a concept get out of registry a second time.

To reiterate, current universal lists are under a lot of scrutiny. Nin and gen need to be able to come up with 21 different techniques, which must account for stage scaling and my own personal hatred for 'useless jutsu' that were previously allowed to flesh out huge parts of old jutsu lists. Hand to hand and sword taijutsu are unlikely to be approved unless we suddenly send half of those existing tai to junk; other weapons that can feasibly have dojos put up around them may be open to consideration. Anything dealing with pure chakra in the form of energy beams, walls, and what not are not welcome. If the element is a reduced or refined form of another element, there's a good chance that village GM will bar it from registry.

merdle
06-09-2012, 05:09 PM
We had a wheel style before, no one used it.
Dance of the bunshin was in 3.0, then was removed.
I thought we had paper at one point... or someone was working on it. I'm surprised it doesn't exist.

the light jutsu + chakra lasers were the same bloodline. (thought I don't carry Jami's distrust for Doujutsu)

Epsilon7
06-11-2012, 11:15 AM
Could you bring back the best of the old lists that not that many people used? I'm sure that at least a few people might be able to use them.

Canti
06-11-2012, 11:32 AM
If I remember, there was a paper based clan in Mist sometime ago. It was one of the hundreds of clans (perhaps a slight exaggeration) to be registered and later junked due to inactivity.

Kaen
06-11-2012, 11:54 PM
I'm almost certain there wasn't.

And anyway, we don't usually junk lists because they are not used, we junk lists because they are broken or redundant. Those sorts of things should never be brought back.

Epsilon7
06-12-2012, 12:43 AM
Well, okay then. But what about The Pied Piper: Dance of the Bunshin (http://www.narutorp.net/showthread.php?t=10523)?

Nobody seems to have posted anything bad about it, and it appears to be a good list, with pretty good jutsu.

Also, how many dojutsu are there on this forum?

merdle
06-12-2012, 01:27 AM
There are three doujutsu now. Maseika, Hyuuga, Hakushouku.

(We've had two more in the recent past.)

Kym
06-12-2012, 01:43 AM
Well, okay then. But what about The Pied Piper: Dance of the Bunshin (http://www.narutorp.net/showthread.php?t=10523)?

Nobody seems to have posted anything bad about it, and it appears to be a good list, with pretty good jutsu.


As far as I remember, it was junked at a time (this was years ago) when global techniques were filled with lists that basically just served as very, very, very small niche lists (niche as in only one person used them). As it happened, basically nobody but the creator of this list used it, and it ended up junked along with a bevy of other lists.

In current Engi's context, it'd probably have trouble going through since it does clash with the established bunshin mechanics this site uses. It also highly resembles the puppet list in some ways. Overall, it probably still doesn't warrant a global list.

Jami
06-12-2012, 01:54 PM
Well, okay then. But what about The Pied Piper: Dance of the Bunshin (http://www.narutorp.net/showthread.php?t=10523)?

Nobody seems to have posted anything bad about it, and it appears to be a good list, with pretty good jutsu.

Also, how many dojutsu are there on this forum?

I feel like I'm repeating myself a lot. That list was registered six years ago and jutsu content and quality standards have changed rather dramatically.

Look at how many of those techniques are Jutsu Name 1-7. That doesn't work anymore. Why? Because your stage ones are allowed to scale into stage four, and stage fives can scale to stage seven effectiveness. That means a jutsu line that used to take up seven slots now only takes up two.

Go read that list and ignore any jutsu with a numbers other than 1 and 5 after them because they would be cut if the list were registered today. Thirteen jutsu. That is barely half of a list.

Please, try to understand that there are more universal jutsu lists than there are lists in any village, even just considering ninjutsu and genjutsu. To be considered for a spot in an overcrowded forum, any new list needs to be a) good, both from a mechanical and a thematic standpoint, b) varied, in terms what the jutsu can do, and c) attractive to characters of any village and, ideally, multiple archetypes/concepts.

If you want new lists so badly, perhaps you should give it a shot at writing one. Maybe then you will understand exactly how difficult it can be to meet all the criteria :)

Epsilon7
06-13-2012, 02:22 AM
There are three doujutsu now. Maseika, Hyuuga, Hakushouku.

(We've had two more in the recent past.)

What are the advantages and disadvantages of each one?

merdle
06-13-2012, 02:43 AM
Disadvantages for doujutsu are usually just stress and chakra use related.

The Byakugan's powers and weaknesses are well known.

The Eiseikougan (of the Maseika) has the power to pierce time, looking back and forward. The problem is that its very limited, and not always sure of what it sees.

The Hakushouku doujutsu sees electromagnetic waves. Its power is identification even at vast distances, and attacking a part of the body (the delicate electrical system in your body) without much defense.